Curse

kedde · Sep 27, 2009, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Lol ^

But really.
Why is it so damn difficult to see context.
This thread solely focuses on stances because they're really gay and an undesirable game mechanic that mops up player mistakes.
They need to be toned down.

Yes, they're pretty much needed now, yes other shit needs to be toned down as well.
This thread just doesn't focus on those primarily.

Reverend Dr · Sep 27, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I still say that the only time stances work well is in synergy with frenzy.

Kaon · Sep 27, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Just faced a bsurger with soldiers defense. I had forgotten how utterly gay it is.

Master Fuhon · Sep 27, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I still say that the only time stances work well is in synergy with frenzy.

Frenzy is an alternate 60 armor state. Casters are just stancing out of having 60 armor.

It makes no sense to claim that Frenzy/cancel switching is only balanced on warriors. If a concept is balanced on one thing, it is always a balance-able concept. If a concept is broken on one thing, it is always an imbalanced concept. Most of the concepts that appear only on the offensive side or defensive side can be balanced in the game of offense vs. defense. Concepts that appear in the middle (smiter's boon) are imbalanced because they are in the dead center of offense and defense, and can only be balanced by placing nothing on two opposite sides. Only concepts that appear in a middle cannot be balanced, because they do not have a corresponding aspect on the other side (they are already perfectly balanced entities themseles, the game thrives around imbalanced entities being in combat).

This is not the same thing as saying that the numbers are off. This is an outright claim of a broken mechanic at the conceptual level. The most polarizing thing that you can say about a particular skill type is that it should or should not be in the game.

Reverend Dr · Sep 27, 2009, 11:00 PM // 23:00

When did I claim that frenzy/cancel switching is only balanced on warriors? I said it is the only time that stances aren't terrible.

Every other time stances are just an unstripable, uninterruptable enchant that can be used on the ground. (also see shout)

Kaon · Sep 27, 2009, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Only frenzy doesn't fit in the same category as balanced stance, lightning reflexes, or disciplined stance. Just like sprint and dash are completely different skills.

Master Fuhon · Sep 28, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When did I claim that frenzy/cancel switching is only balanced on warriors? I said it is the only time that stances aren't terrible.

Every other time stances are just an unstripable, uninterruptable enchant that can be used on the ground. (also see shout)

The claim is implicit by usage of the specific case: Frenzy. IAS stance with high vulnerability drawback does not appear elsewhere in the game. There is no 'synergy with Frenzy' that 'works well' outside of the warrior class. Physical damage dealers have the highest capacity to punish the low armored classes that deal armor ignoring damage. Rangers/Paragons have the armor to use frenzy, but they do not have synergy with using cancel stances when they can attack from range.

Taken from wiki: Synergy (from the Greek syn-ergos, συνεργός meaning working together) is the term used to describe a situation where different entities cooperate advantageously for a final outcome.

You appear to be using a vague variant of the definition of synergy. I consider synergy to be based on a stronger bond than what you mention. I consider synergy to be closer to 'two sides closer to being in direct opposition rather than being closer to being the same'. That is coming off my definition of different. Synergy is not a black or white issue anyway, so there need to be cases where the synergy is too low to be considered existent.

By using a vague definition of synergy, you would be making a weaker build based on many similar concepts all beaten in a similar way because they are too similar. What you would think is synergistic, would actually be a very easy build for someone else to break apart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Only frenzy doesn't fit in the same category as balanced stance, lightning reflexes, or disciplined stance. Just like sprint and dash are completely different skills.

They are all stances, and they are all stances that fit in the same category of being used to 'reduce the punishment of positional mistep'. Sprint and Dash are no different. It is a positional mistep to chase a kiting or prekiting character.

Some of them are flexible enough that you can lure people into believing your positional mistep was not intentional. Some of them might also have alternate uses.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 28, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

They are all stances, and they are all stances that fit in the same category of being used to 'reduce the punishment of positional mistep'. Sprint and Dash are no different. It is a positional mistep to chase a kiting or prekiting character.

Some of them are flexible enough that you can lure people into believing your positional mistep was not intentional. Some of them might also have alternate uses.

So basically you're saying WoH and Orison of Healing are essentially the same!

Just because 2 skills have the same general usage it doesn't mean that one of them can't be overpowered.

Kaon · Sep 28, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

No he's saying that they're the same skilltype. I guess WoH and lightning orb are the same because they're both spells.

Razz L Dazzle · Sep 28, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Stances- Overall change to Stances.

Stances cannot be activated while knocked down

Similar to spell use, opens a window of opportunity for offenses to kill. It rewards players that use it preemptively rather than reactively. I think it's a natural change since stances are meant to prepare you for what’s about to come. Using them while on your back is illogical (stance=standing) and makes them too powerful.

Individual Stance changes needed

Current rangers bars ability to survive is beyond what they should be capable of. Natural Stride is a fairly balanced stance that allows rangers to be mobile/durable characters. Lightning Reflexes allows them to tank and pump poison. It also allows rangers to overextend without penalty. Having both stances (LR and Natty) is what breaks the balance of this template. Lightning seems the better skill to punish.

Lightning Reflexes- increase 30 --> 45 recharge

Mo/W’s- First of all now monks have high armor and plus their stances make them even stronger targets. I’d like see balanced stance work similarly to the way hex breaker functions. That along with a “stances cannot be activated while knocked down” I think would make it well balanced. I've considered, to some degree, a 20 second recharge with the above mentioned description, slightly shorten duration.

Balanced Stance- Stance. For X seconds, the next time you are the target of a knock down it fails and this stance ends. While under this stance you do not suffer extra damage from critical hits.

Invincible monks under Paragon related builds would probably need a tweak. It's a little too good at 10 second recharge while running Dual paragon builds.

Soldier’s Defense- 5 energy 12 recharge. Stance. For X seconds, you have a 75% chance to block while under a chant or shout. Change the 4 second break point to require 9 tactics

Implementation of Passive Defense

Wards are an interesting form of passive defense that allows “safe zones”. They can’t be removed so this can make them problematic to some degree. However the main issues with Wards is them being Fast-Cast and Fast-recharging. This problem manifested itself when run on a Mesmer, making them uninterruptible. I wouldn’t mind Wards being a part of the mesmer, or ele template. So I’ve considered the following change to all Ward types. I think the suggestion below keeps them at 1 second cast and prevents quick recharge making it vulnerable but rewarding.

Wards are now a chant-

The range of this chant can be seen as it was before, indicated by the circles. Only party members inside the circle receive the benefits.

Ward of Melee- 10 energy 1 cast 20 recharge- Chant spell. Breakpoints. @9 becomes 12 second, @10 becomes 13 second duration ,@12 becomes 14 second duration ,@14 becomes 15 second duration

Aegis- 15 energy 2 cast 30 recharge- I would move the 11 second break-point to 15 prot.

Pious Concentration- 5 energy 20 second recharge

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 28, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

An American that wants Aegis back? I'm confused :|

moriz · Sep 28, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

i'll support no stances while KD'd, once wastrel's collapse gets nerfed. there's no chance to predict that shit.

urania · Sep 28, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

you mean, make stances a skill instead of "no stances while kd"

FoxBat · Sep 28, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

If you leave stances at instant activation but require you to be free to act (e.g. instant signets like dolyak and sig of myst speed) then people will just mash the stance button until it triggers. 75% of the time they should be able to fend off the quarterknock, which would mean you can still reactively avoid KD-lock from hammers and collapse sins. (good?) You'd need a 1/4th activation on the defensive stances if you want to get around that.

Reverend Dr · Sep 28, 2009, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

The claim is implicit by usage of the specific case. . . Synergy . . .

And how does this affect anything? Outside of sword/axe warriors, stances are just uninterruptable, unstripable buffs. Word definitions are clearly the problem with our metagame.

Also rush + frenzy is a synergy. No they can't both be activated at the same time, but rush is the IMS to the IAS, not just a 'switch stance', rush would be brought even if frenzy had no increased damage (anet don't do this); rush and frenzy together allow you to deal more damage than with just one or the other. This meets the very definition you posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

An American that wants Aegis back? I'm confused :|

There would be a fair number of us, except most of us have fallen into the "Anet can't do anything, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it all I quit" group.

Greedy Gus · Sep 29, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

If you leave stances at instant activation but require you to be free to act (e.g. instant signets like dolyak and sig of myst speed) then people will just mash the stance button until it triggers. 75% of the time they should be able to fend off the quarterknock, which would mean you can still reactively avoid KD-lock from hammers and collapse sins. (good?) You'd need a 1/4th activation on the defensive stances if you want to get around that.

I don't think there's a problem with using a stance once you get up to avoid the 2nd KD knocklock. At least if you didn't properly get it off before the first KD, you're vulnerable while down.

I like thorin's suggestions, and replying to fuhon when he's rambling about semantics just helps ruin threads. For ward as a chant, that would get the intended effect although in a workaround way. It would be really nice if a new mechanic could be introduced that doesn't allow faster cast time for a spell (by mes primary, equipment chance trigger, etc.), that could just be tacked on to specific skills. This would be a tremendously useful balance tool.

Apok Omen · Sep 29, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Or they could just make Ward Spells into Ward Skills and be done with it...

As for Aegis comming back, I don't have a problem with it as long as the duration gets shortened. Maybe 1...7..8 seconds or something, and drop the energy cost to 10.

As for stances, after thinking about it, B-stance isn't much of a problem. It's been around forever and not alot of new KD skills have been introduced to the meta. Warriors have just gotten better with executing perfect KDs and Monks have gotten better with knowing which KDs can cost them the game. Aura of Stab is the real issue. Up recharge, decrease duration, and it will be fine.

Master Fuhon · Sep 29, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

So basically you're saying WoH and Orison of Healing are essentially the same!

Just because 2 skills have the same general usage it doesn't mean that one of them can't be overpowered.

Spammability without disrutability sounds like your complaint. This whole issue was created by the power of the disabling aspect of Distracting Shot, Disrupting Chop, Power Block, and 2-3 second knockdowns. When people all run combinations of these and fail to execute, they can't do anything else. However, when people run combinations of these and get lucky every once in a while with execution, it produces a situation where defense is balanced against the possibility of the better offense. Disrupting skill was advocated as a desireable part of the game (timing). I addressed this in a previous post in this thread with the suggestion of a Shame buff to allow this desireable build prototype to be stronger (also increasing synergy by providing yet another avenue for timing skill to be demonstrated).

It's not a game design flaw that some people are choosing to reduce offensive attacking ability and just rely on raw disruption to win. Some builds regularly demonstrate the damage that can be put out during a disruption window. Maybe if people didn't continually bash certain class designs as being degenerate they would allow themselves to play them. The irony is that people spit on the paragon, and the paragon turns out to fit their particular playstyle the best. You have diversionary pressure and openings to time spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

No he's saying that they're the same skilltype. I guess WoH and lightning orb are the same because they're both spells.

The Mesmer class addresses this statement about connecting various skill subtypes. There are other cases found outside of the class, mainly on interrupts that do something extra against a particular subtype. Any melee or projectile based class should also know that casting a spell requires a character to stop moving for that moment. For more complex meta builds (like monks with stances), there is Visions of Regret. The VoR template has been the focus of systematic nerfing, so arguments of it not being an overpowered counter would be running up against another argument.

Guild Wars is not an FPS where all characters are homogenized and can only suffice by using direct damage and reaction reflex. The game has elements of RTS where sending the wrong unit to attack a particular unit amounts to lost fights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

And how does this affect anything? Outside of sword/axe warriors, stances are just uninterruptable, unstripable buffs...

Also rush + frenzy is a synergy. No they can't both be activated at the same time, but rush is the IMS to the IAS, not just a 'switch stance', rush would be brought even if frenzy had no increased damage (anet don't do this); rush and frenzy together allow you to deal more damage than with just one or the other. This meets the very definition you posted.

The second paragraph was part of my original argument. "There is no 'synergy with Frenzy' that 'works well' outside of the warrior class" were my exact words.

Being a warrior doesn't change mechanics. Stances are near unstrippable buffs on anything. There are rare hard counters like Wild Blow/Spear/Strike and Mark of Insecurity. The common soft counters are some combination of hexes, spell casting damage, and unblockables. All speed boosts are impeded by hex snares. Any form of IAS is impeded by Empathy/Faintheartedness/hexes.

Having high armor exludes certain classes from having to deal with being spiked, stripped of prots, and spiked again; and that's been the single most common meta strategy to appear. Design doesn't produce the lack of flexibility; the choice to bring two warriors does. 'Different' skills provide greater 'synergy'. Similar skills provide less synergy and are countered by similar actions. Meta playstyle is to deal with counters through redundancy not synergy; "I got blocked on agonizing chop, let me use disrupting chop now, now you use yours".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Word definitions are clearly the problem with our metagame.

Synergy and redundancy have already fought countless wars. The wise compete with the intelligent. The quick race against the fast. Wealthy and rich men compete for happiness with the man without want. Perseverence competes with talent. Definitions determine who comes out on top, both at a particular time and in the long run. Players don't often lose because of game imbalance; but because they have poor conception of which definitions provide advantages in each situation.

Krill · Sep 29, 2009, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Wards are now a chant-

etc. etc.

Interesting idea to get around fast casting and casting sets, but I think the first question should be if wards are really a problem in GvG. Even if melee was restored to where it was I doubt it would see much play, even in defensive builds that are designed for 7v7. HA on the other hand, where wards are still used (foes always, melee and harm on rare occasions), changing them to a chant would make them next to useless because of energy issues without GoLE and PD fodder. Since wards are not currently an issue in GvG and have been a staple of HA forever I don't see any reason for a major change in their design.

kedde · Sep 29, 2009, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Why would you not use ward?
The only AoE there is to force you out is rodgorts every once in a while and rust.